Okay. So what's let's go through this. This is chapter. Let's chapter 2.

Fuck happened in this one. Let me download.

Yeah, so there were.

It seemed like there were two parts, right? There was like the first part. There was the first part which was.

The part where.

You were talking about.

His ability. I mean his abilitation. The structural transformation of the public sphere. So. The structural transformation of public sphere.

You see a? I mean, it's it's as veins or whatever was saying it's like him trying to instantiate a philosophy of history with the practical intent or a like falsifiable kind of. Empirical type thing. The word empirical to you use.

So it charts the emergence of this thing called the public sphere out of feudalism where power was displayed. Rather than or displayed or which was a form of representational power. So the way that I'm interpreting that is it's like power but. It's like contained power or represented so like.

I don't know. I almost want it almost kind of sounds like the totally administered society thing because there's no space because there's. That's what the bourgeois public's fear is. It's it's a space. That is.

It's a space that acts as a check on political power, that's not merely reducible to ideology.

Um, it's also kind of associated with the private so. There's a whole notion of like Kant and the reading public. Reading public. Private. I'm gonna check on that but there's you were noticed like there's just there's a private versus public. Dichotomy and it's seemed like what was happening is like harm us was valorizing the.

Private side.

You couldn't be reading public.

Private reading anyways, it's it's just it's the cont. It's it's a conquote so it seems like what Harbor moss is doing was saying that.

You know, there's the private again this space.

I mean, I don't know it's you when you remember it from your own reading it's like wasn't it like not private it wasn't like.

Not merely public or not merely private, you know, well because again, it's like it's a spacing between but. Anyways with the rise of they're like multiple like multiple things happen, right there's like corporations advertising the. The kind of it gets hit for multiple directions.

And the, Typical multiple directions.

Full directions and then. There starts to become like the refutalization of society.

Wherein the this the the the distinction between public. The distinction between public and private get blurred and that's like bad.

So anyways, but but he's optimistic about the fact that maybe this is like the whole like liberal rec stop. Something starts.

He's like, He's hopeful right he's like well we're in like we live in the welfare state. But it's not like perfect but like maybe it could go back or something but. Anyways.

In which case I mean, it's this kid says I guess to. I don't like he's doing imminent criticism imminent critique, so like showing how.

The. The present society is failing to live up to its own like latent promises. So.

Yeah, it's like well this society like it promises. There's like this promise of this, you know radical space like it's not too late to go back or something anyways, it's really halberras but.

Okay, so then there's this other book. Which is called. Like knowledge.

Acknowledge and human interests. Which. Seems like a trip.

So in it.

He's interested in these things called like cognitive interests and what he's trying to do is he's trying to ground the social sciences and language, so he's trying to provide this kind of grounding. He's trying to show through his mix this mixture of like content Darwin so it's like, The transcendental empirical distinction, it's like important and he's gonna blur that.

So he's like trying to show. How this thing called.

These interests like arise. Of. How they dislike a ride or develop or something like that, but so there's any okay anyway, there are these three cognitive interests like the one is associated with Charles Sanders pierce. It's like about like manipulation and control.

So,

I don't know or necessarily I'll say about that but.

But yeah, so it's associated with control manipulation, but also like. Science. I don't know it's like but HarborMaugh's finds him guilty of like. Maybe not necessarily scientism or positivism but.

Like still he just finds him kill T.

So because like he it's like overly scientistic. Scientific. And.

Reification. It's like it's kind of it's I feel like it's kind of like the same thing with like what happened with? Freud in sin marks, right where they're like.

Like two caught up in themselves as like a form of science, which. Gets us to like another point. I guess like backing up which is that. One of the things that we're moss is concerned with this whole time is like. This debasement of philosophy select philosophy used to. You know.

It was like with content. I had like this more elevated. Status. And then like with Hegel it becomes because they get so it swifts from like Eric Kentness. Terry to Bishanshoft Terry Theory. So like then we get to like this motif for it's like philosophy is the.

Philosophies like they're like the janitors of reason it's like it's a theory of science we're basically just trying to. Figure out like how science. Like how science can. Be more error-free, maybe like eliminate errors and method. I don't know but it's like it's totally philosophies like totally subservient to to science.

And so this is this is kind of what I was thinking about sticking it all like this is weird because like it's weird because hopper moss is like wall it's like go back to like cunt who's much more. We're like philosophy as like this much more important role that's like not subordinated to science.

But at the same time it's like he deflates philosophy to. This role that it's like it's ungrounded it has no really special status it has no special object really it's kind of like a nomadic subject thing you'd like in and there's nothing that philosophy can lay access to that's not it's not already accessible by.

Regular people, you know, so he really. But in this assuming it's like critique right so like with critique like and that's like that's like what paul Ross is like all about. I mean, he's like he's all about critique like this whole thing is like we need to go. I mean again, this is like in the sixties there's like nineteen sixties or something.

It was like that's that's what's up we need to we need to we need to do this thing called critique. So it's like a move away from people like maybe like popper or.

I don't know.

But it's like we need to move away from philosophy as a move this whole thing of like philosophy as a theory of science is bullshit. So we need immediate to move from that to critique so. Anyways that one that was something that happened you were kind of got interrupted with you were gonna do the cognitive interests, but there was also the thing with you know, there's like going on like way there's like the X curses on cons and higgle which is like really interesting and good.

But it's like. Why although it was don't don't forget just like over here that like the transcendental unity of that perception, you know that. Desert hotter monster places die with like the. The background the, The life world. The subject like. I don't know if you want to call it a subject well.

I mean, there's an agent they don't really say agent is humanifest image, but anyways. In this chapter the author is explicit about like. The author is explicit about how about about how moss is explicit about. How there's the shift like. Comment has a transcendentality unity of a perception or the numeral self and like that it's switched out for the.

The.

I don't know the.

For lack of a better word the life world self. I don't know anyways, so okay, let's let's get back to these.

Let's get back. To these.

Fucking. Cognitive interests right, so they're three cognitive interests. And these are like evolutionary these are like. Mate like maybe this is like, Maybe. This is a way of like.

Of like hover moss trying to do kind of like what higgle and. Haunted. So like. Oh it's gonna get messy it's like for cunt right well. I'm first of all like what was the problem? The problem was.

I mean, I don't know the whole numeral phenomenal thing.

But okay, so let's just but so anyways can't does this. Con does this thing hey goal is like what would? You can't.

Like this whole idea that like there's this unknowable like you have this.

Self that's unknowable but it's like doing a lot of work. Or maybe it's like okay yeah, so like cons. Although again, I mean besides it's the problem it's like oh strange you like synthesize rational some period says, you know, like I forget like I'm like why?

He's trying to the rationalize like science well like trying to figure out trying to defend science, well, maybe it's a reason thing or like a critique thing he's like trying to. Justify. It's it's critique like. It's critique of reason by reason anyways, um, so. Hey goal is like noted.

I'm gonna switch to metaphysics and I'm going to.

I don't know it's like everything you could it makes everything like imminent? I want to say so it's like. They're these shapes of consciousness. And they can't. That come into like contradiction because like, They like. Only have they think that what they know is like one thing but they actually know more than that so like they're like how like on my stock because this is.

What I know. They've absolutely absolutes right it's like there's no way that it just has to be this way. It has to be this way but like they know actually that's like they're actually they're actually using these other tools from this different shape like hasn't been elucidated yet.

So anyways. But that just anyways, so like that's not very like satisfying for hover mosque because it's like it's not presuppositionless. Or like you're still it's it's there are presuppositions, he you have to begin that from a space of absolute knowledge, you know, or whatever. But I guess the more important point years like you're wondering if like this is like, Harbor moss trying to do his own like.

To put like the book beside them, you know, like it's like hey go all the most. So does everything that's that's one way to think about it, but. Okay, so this is three cognitive interests so. You know, maybe. In like maybe the maybe kind of sort of those are like shapes of consciousness, although they're not.

Do you have no evidence right now to suggest that they're like develop, you know progressively one after the other you don't know that. So the first one is associated with pierce. Right manipulation and control the second one is associated with diltie. And then we know interpretation. And then the third one is associated with like Kant in a way.

Because then it's about like, you know, like transcendental reflection self-reflection, so the third one is like, Seems to be like the interesting one because what?

What hovers seems to do.

Is he seems to like he's like well.

I mean, I think he even brings in like marks and Freud here and he's like well. The third one is like it has to do with the main secretion and this is like the critical theory, so he's like he's like he's trying to ground critical theory in.

Although I I've known I mean, you have no idea well.

I mean, I don't know maybe these are like all naturalistically.

But it seems like every person would have access to these two, so it's like. Because every person like interprets and you know, they, you know subject to subject intercept activity. They have this, you know knowledge that there's a there's a difference between trying to manipulate or control something versus trying to like you you you have to treat the object differently like you treat like the objects.

In a kind of interpretive herbutic mode, you treat it differently than the object. And it kind of scientific. Mode where you're trying to manipulate it or control it and you treat that differently then you know, or the object gets treated differently and the reflective mode. Which I'm associating with.

Because it's all about like counterfactuals and like what let's imagine what this person would if if there was if we like let's imagine what it what it would be like if there weren't domination and what society you know, what this person would be like if these kind of these fantasies were removed and let's like, Let's imagine what a better life would be an emancipation.

You know, so then.

But but you know, they're all these kinds of critiques. So it gets critiqued, you know, surprise surprise the critiques are pretty rare feed rarefied.

Against the one that's coming to mind was like you were.

Because like what he does is like he liked sandwiches two different kinds of critique together, he like takes he like conflates. He's like he takes like contention reflection. Or critique, you know, I mean smushes it like with like the marks one. Or the Freud or something and people like whoa, dude like those things like.

Art like do not really fit. In so hover mask is critique to law and at the end of the days like it's it's the best like I know I know it kind of sucks but like it's better. It's like it's the best one we have here yet, so he's like still insisting on this like synthesis of content.

Darwin.

You're also thinking about because like some of the critiques are like epistemological other critiques for like ontological having to do with like nature and you were wondering you're like, oh I wonder if like, The assumption of this whole like nature culture divide kind of thing. If that would be.

You know, if that things would have been. Well, I don't know if you could say, please be better for us didn't do that, but like it's just like part of the project, you know, it's like.

It's seems like the natural culture split. Which also is kind of that distinction, so like if we think to the second. Because so again, there were three cognitive interests. But apparently later on he's like no scratch that like I can't really hold the the the distinction I'm just it's just gonna collapse into two so like there's the you know, the pier swan and the dill tie one but then what that does is it's like well but isn't that just like nature culture?

Right nature ie pierce culture ie dil tie it's just like two different, you know, so he seems to like reify the, Nature of culture binary. Although you know that the question I guess be like what why did it like, why does that? Like why does that matter you know?

Obviously people like throw fits about that now but like why is that matter? Or you know, it's kind of teaching like. Sure it matters but like doesn't matter for like what I'm doing. Like does it matter for this particular project? Like no. So, um, The only other thing. Which is surprising that you didn't say it up until now but.

Just the whole pole like bolt and ski and tape it out thing. It's like it's like kind of. Although.

I don't know it just seems like kind of similar right because like,

Because they're both showing they're like, they're like different ways. Well, first of all, they're both pragmatic and there's that one foot note, that's like holy crap like they're like, they're really not. They're really not that different.

So, but anyways. Because both this game too know they're like, they're you know, like the six orders of worth, you know, there's like the. You know, dust drill or a little bit just you know, like the fame which is like based on hobs. The market which is based on Adam Smith's I believe.

But anyways, they like the six but like they're associated with like different styles of thinking but it's convent okay, so this is this is interesting though, but those are conventions. Those are not cognitive. So, Harbor moss is like doing this whole thing but like on it on the cognitive dimension, not on the level of convention, that's really interesting.

I mean, I don't know what like that means or what the significance of that is. But.

It was like or like what even cognitive means, you know, it's like cognitive science. It's like the you know shapes of it's about like consciousness. But again, I mean again he's doing these zoom philosophy and again if you think about in terms of like hey goal or whatever, you know, he's thinking about like shapes of consciousness.

I yeah or so, it's just it's it's philosophy, right? He's doing it in philosophy.

So we'll see what how I did. Okay so few things viewed the few things you forgot. I guess there was the stress on like marks. In like the whole relations of production versus.

There's a social relations.

There's like marks obviously distinguishes between the relations of production and the social relations. So like but like,

But marks have very limited understanding of. Like the relations of production, which I think you know, there's like he assigns to like, I don't know there's like he's just very limited right so there's like labor through a value wage labor system family, you know, like there's only like a couple institutions but like he doesn't.

Mark things. He's like he doesn't think a lot about institution. There's like, I mean, there's the family I'm pretty sure but like that's it. So.

Anyways, but so there's that. So whereas hover mass is like well.

I'm gonna stress this whole social relations things more which sometimes. Which maybe harm us calls the interaction a lot. So there's that but.

He wants to make room for.

Their basically to be. As you as you're reading it, you know, like the the wall dimension of stuff so like marks is like the relations of production. Determine everything. I don't know. But. Harbor moss wants to be like well, oh yeah, like recognition he's like hopper moss wants to lay out and make a lot more room for.

Recognition.

So in like you're you're getting like definite like vibes. Where it's like people.

Well, there's like, Well again, I think what harmonics wants to do is he wants to? Stay like a domination. There can be. A lot. More kinds of domination like I know specifically I know that the author in this Bains or whatever says like he says, I think he says political domination so like.

One way to maybe work with that would be like well if you think about this in terms of base superstructure. Hover mouse wants to think much more about the superstructure.

So. She's like, you know, the superstructure is like not. Right like because like marks again. I'm sure this is a vulgar reading of marks, you know, give me a break but. It's like the the base is the moment that's most important. Right and hover master's like no well the bases obviously important but like the superstructures also important.

Where didn't you have things like? Again, like education or morals because like morals or thought to be you know, just pure ideology, just like. And I think habramas wants to make room for.

You know. Morals and like this the the struggle for recognition.

But also I mean like and like I'm not sure how this is. Like grafting back onto the language, but like you were thinking of this in terms of like social media, right? And how?

Because like social media is like, you know, like relation that's like a relationship production, right?

But how.

Oh yeah, well no, okay you were you were used specifically had the idea like the internet around like the 2000s cuz like, you know, they're supposed to be like, oh my god, the internet is gonna go oh yeah, so what what the expense so has to do with like a meta narrative basically so there's a millionaire there's a meta narrative with marks in the meta narrative is when,

You know.

The meta narrative is. Like when the relations of production it's a kind of causal thing right it's like when the relations of production get to like be a certain point then it kind of follows that. You know, the social relations will be different or that there'll be a man education, right?

I think it's like in the original marks like burst through the into human or first through the feathers or whatever. But.

So you were thinking you're like, you know, that sounds kind of like the internet in the. Like the tooth out like the you know, late night usually two thousands or it's like, oh my god internet is going to. Like say this forever but it's like wall but like there are forms of power that like don't.

I don't know like power is like more versatile than that or it's something but anyways, so you were thinking about that. That happened but also like in the main you were just kind of thinking about how. When you're reading this like you just got very like rhetoric of science fives.

So a lot of the stuff was just kind of. Common sense which makes sense because it would make sense that hopper moss is common sense by now in a lot of ways. That being like science is a rhetorical activity and like scientists have to persuade.

Like it's not. Like you you got the feeling that hover mouse like his his whole point was like people before him thoughts like oh my god site like scientists just make these facts in the facts just like. You know force people. To do things because they're facts and like cutting hollows to make the point like well no.

There's this activity. That's constituted of science and that is like scientists kind of arguing and having to persuade. Themselves. Of.

You know, whatever like but it's but it's like that's like that's the background. So that's kind of in that's an interesting. Insight. Actually.

It's not like it's like oh my god the background that's like so abstract like but that would mean like the rhetoric of science is the background like what like literally what they're doing is tabulating the background. Kind of showing.

Showing exactly kind of what harmless is talking about which is like there's this contrast between the the manifest image and the scientific image and that actually there's this irreducible.

Manifest image because it's people you know down the ground making science who are like, Having to. Try and like people persuading and being persuaded persuading being persuaded.

And like that kind of calmer and just conversation right because it's like that. I think that was like one of the big things between like.

Again, like delta I and Pierce. Because there's like there's like dialogue and you were taking dialogue kind of in the. In the sense of you know, just like dialogue and like a strong sense. Like a leotards like taking philosophers by the haunches bok teen. Double hermeneutic get-ins. Kind of way.

For hours, but anyway, so it's like a lot of the stuff just like kind of.

It's kind of common sense. Which is interesting it's like like like you like so it's like you you think you know like you think it's oh my god, I don't know how much but it's like you you kind of do know. So. Let's take. Okay.

I guess just come more things really minor notes one was just although I don't know really what to do with this. Because it's not because you were thinking about toolman, but it's like, This toolman cognitive maybe but just don't forget about toolmen the connection with Casey Boyle and like right Austin was kind of interesting actually because like that's because you're thinking about that in terms of imminent critique which is kind of what boil is doing in critique.

Because he's like, well if you look at like right Austin, like look at the. Look at what was you know, looking what they built right like? Uber left. But like they left. You know, this this network and like that can be like mobilized for emancipation so it's like so it was interesting to think about boil in terms of imminent critique and especially in terms of like hover moss and this whole like Marxist tradition which like kind of totally makes sense because of a lot of,

I don't know that's the best interesting so boilman class that was another thing again just a minor note, but he's saying like,

Class like.

What is there oh yeah, just like classes doesn't like it's it's not all about class marks there's like so it's like this whole emphasis on class. Needs to be like downplayed. And I think that's kind of it.

And then just the logic of the locus of change so I don't forget to like that you can. Like control if that cuz like locus of change is like a pretty important word in this. And then also is critique of haggle, which was you kind of got the feeling that it was like.

Was calling hickle kind of gimmicky being like well. You don't really need you didn't really need to do. This you know, like it seemed like wouldn't it should be better if you just like inject absolute knowledge into your veins, you know, because it's like you don't he's like you don't this whole thing is like.

Of this whole developmental progression is like kind of throw edge and so you were thinking about reading like a cultural studies pedagogy, maybe you know. Where it's like, you know, we're gonna read but like they're reading itself is like not very important we just want the content. So anyways, that's it.